The Indonesian government has ordered the country’s internet service providers to block YouTube for publishing the 15-minute anti-Muslim film “Fitna”, made by Dutch MP Geert Wilders, leader of the anti-immigration Freedom Party (PVV). Some of the country's ISPs followed the block order, but “Fitna” could still be viewed through other providers.
“A letter was sent to Internet providers asking them to block any site or blog posting the film Fitna (…) Not only YouTube has uploaded the film, so it is up to the ISPs' discretion to block these sites,” a Communications and Information Ministry Official is quoted as saying.
Earlier this week, Indonesia had threatened to block YouTube unless the video-sharing web site removed the aforementioned movie.
Yet more proof that Islamic theology and ideology is unwilling to accept criticism. Wilder’s film points out that Islam spawns a lot of violent and kookie groups who are anti-gay, sexist, and kill non-Muslims. This is true and intellectually a fair question to ask.
That Muslims are offended is their problem. In a world with different viewpoints, no group can claim to be beyond criticism. I find Islam intellectually dishonest and its historical scholarship to be laughable.
Instead of banning the film, Indonesia should answer it honestly. Yet, I believe there is not much critical thought in Islam. If the truth of Koran and its so call prophet beyond challenge, then how is inter-faith and inter-cultural dialog possible. I think it is not and the fault is on the part of Islamic theology.
posted on April 5th, 2008 at 11:26 pm - #9078Mr. critic
the fact is that u cannot make a distinction between insult and critism based on reasons. if ur senses are not immune to honor, that u would definitely be purturbed when someone go mad in critising not only your religion but ur whole ancestral history. showing films doesn’t make any good. we are taught by Holy Quran, to respect all religions and prophets of the history, because they were the messengers of God. Do u know what God is. i believe “no”. To have a dialogue with such an ignorant man is to waste our time. U bark like stray dogs, but u will never be able to draw sensible to your ranks.
posted on April 6th, 2008 at 12:54 pm - #9081“..we are taught by Holy Quran, to respect all religions and prophets of the history..”. Really ? Is this particular teaching overruled by the calls to kill ‘kafirs’ wherever you see them ?
posted on April 6th, 2008 at 7:25 pm - #9086“u would definitely be purturbed when someone go mad in critising not only your religion but ur whole ancestral history.”
Mr. Muslim Scholar, to your above posted sentence I can reply a big NO! Over the years, I have criticised my own religion and my ancestral tradition to every extent that I now retract from my previously held views for very good facts and reasons. Just because you are bewildered from somebodies critique, doesnt mean that you should completely rule it out without hearing it through and have reasonable answers to those questions they are challenging you with. I can only advise you to think deeply why you are defending your religion as if it were infallible.
posted on April 6th, 2008 at 8:58 pm - #9087Is Indonesian Government foolish enough to ban the Youtube in this 21st century internet Global age. Pls see that informations and visuals cannot be banned in this era.
People will always be anxious to see what is banned. People want always to see what is hidden. That is the natural law. Instead of the end result of hiding from the publis I think fitna will appear on every Indonesian Home PCs.
posted on April 7th, 2008 at 6:30 am - #9089I am a muslim in Indonesia, and I have to say that I don’t care about the movie. I love my religion, but I also respect free speech. So give me back Youtube!
posted on April 8th, 2008 at 12:44 pm - #9105I am a Catholic in Indonesia, and once again, the movie creates disturbances between all religions, and that is very unpleasant for all of us. We are aware of the situations and we want peace !
posted on April 9th, 2008 at 3:48 am - #9109[...] &161H&8224&218I&352&339J&8225R’ &205&210&164N&243http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/191968.phpIndonesia blocks YouTube over ???Fitna??? the movie – Global Voices OnlineEarlier this week, Indonesia threatened to block Youtube unless the video-sharing web site removes [...]
posted on April 9th, 2008 at 6:08 am - #9111Bismillah hirrahma nirrah heem.
Let’s discuss the verses of Quran mentioned in the Geert Wilders’ Video. Does these actually showing the same meaning??
Before going to discuss The verses in detail. Let me tell you few examples to explain what meaning we can get quoting something out of context……
In Islam, on every muslim its compulsory to offer prayer five times a day. Allah says in Quran.
002.238 Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).
But if a person who is against offering Prayer he can say ….OHH I will not offer Prayer because Allah has made it Forbidden AND QURAN EXPLAIN TO US, “DON’T OFFER PRAYER!” He can quote following verse from Quran.
004.043 O ye who believe! Approach not prayers!!!
Anybody can take such wording out of context from Quran and say. Don’t pray!!! Quran has forbidden it.
Will you believe on such kind of Person Quoting from Quran???????
Actually Allah is saying in this verse; Don’t go near Prayer if you not fulfill few requirements until you clean.
004.043 O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. ….
SO WE CAN GET ANY MEANING FROM ANY BOOK IF QOUTING OUT OF CONTEXT.
LET ME SAY AGAIN
WE CAN GET ANY MEANING FROM ANY BOOK IF QOUTING OUT OF CONTEXT.
We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: “Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them”. Today if I say that the American President said, “Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them” without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war.
Lets Discuss the verses used in the Video.
Two verses he took from Surah Al-Anfal (surah # 8)
It was revealed in 2 A. H. after the Battle of Badr, the first battle between Islam and kufr. As it contains a detailed and comprehensive review of the Battle, it appears that most probably it was revealed at one and the same time.
Muslim were being attacked with 1000 armed person from Makka city and they meet with Muslims in the battlefield of Badar near Madina City. Muslim were only 313 among them only 70 were equipped with sword and rest was only holding sticks, Only 2 horses and 70 camel. It was very little and ill-armed army who gave very bad defeat to Kaffir of Makka who attacked Muslim fully equipped and full of pride.
This surah is mentioning all about this Badar War. Many commandments for the soldiers and for the army commander.
Geert Wilders used this surah and pick verses which Allah send down during battle field of Badar to boost the mural of soldiers.
At the start of battlefield Prophet (s.a.w) was making lot of Prays from Allah for His help. Allah mention that in the start of surah , verse 9 and 10
On reaching the verse 15 and 16 Allah gave the following Commandments to the companion of Prophet (s.a.w) to don’t be scared , don’t show your back, fight. Just like any Army General give such commandant to his soldiers. Allah says.
008.015 O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array of Battle, never turn your backs to them.
008.016 If any do turn his back to them on such a day – unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!
In all this surah the commandments and techniques of war has been briefly explained by Allah. Then by Reaching the verse 39, (which is used in the video) Allah say to the companion Prophet (s.a.w) that fight and kill them don’t be coward. Now by Reaching this verse 39 Allah says.
008.039 And fight them on until there is no more tumult/oppression (Fitna), and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
The verse clearly speaking by itself and meaning is so clear. Wilder , so cleverly not only pick this verse from whole commandments but also only a part of this verse. He even not used full verse. Because if he use full verse the verse itself explaining about “cease of war”, This war is allowed only until they “cease”, if they not cease the war then keep on fight and kill them.
Now we keep going ahead of the surah.
By Reaching Verse 46 and 47, Allah giving commandments to the companion of Prophet s.a.w The be Firm in war and keep remembrance of Allah and keep obeying the Prophet as Army General so that you remain like a unit in Battlefield.
After many commandments regarding battlefield one most important commandment was to collect maximum possible power with weapon, horses etc so that when next time this kind of attack on city comes your position in equipment and weapon should not be that weak.
Allah says in verse 60
008.060 Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah does know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
And next verse Allah explain more details. Inclined towards PEACE!!! if the enemy also incline towards Peace.
008.061 But if the enemy incline towards peace, do incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Now Wilder only pick verse 60 for that video proving some surprise thing from it. Totally different kind of meaning he is wishing to Get from this verse totally out of context.
We can only Pray…O Allah give them light of Islam so that they can also prosper.
Lets talk about remaining three verses used in the Video
Chapter 47 Surah Muhammad Verse number 4
Wilder very cleverly again pick few initial wording of the verse to completely change the whole meaning of verse. Getting the surprise meaning from it.
The translation of some part of the verse he used in video is as under.
“Therefore when you meet the unbelievers, Smite at their necks and when ye have caused a bloodbath among them bind a bound firmly on them“
Now the exact verse with exact translation is as under.
So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, smite the necks; then, when you have overcome them, make (them) prisoners, and afterwards (set them free) as a favour or for ransom till the war lay down its burdens…..47:4
This passage mentions the only case in which prisoners of war can be taken, and thus condemns the practice of slavery, according to which men could be seized anywhere and sold into slavery. Here we are told that prisoners of war can only be taken after meeting an enemy in regular battle, and even in that case they must be set free, either as a favour or after taking ransom. It was the former of these alternatives that the Holy Prophet adopted in most cases; for instance, in the case of the prisoners of the Bani Musaliq war, in which a hundred families were set at liberty, and in the case of Hawazin war, in which fully six thousand prisoners of war were released merely as an act of favour. Only in the case of the seventy prisoners taken at Badr war, where there is mention of redemption having been taken, but this was when Islam was very weak and the powerful enemy was determined to crush it
Anybody can clearly see what actually the verse explaining is good for humanity but Wilder use the verse as if it is against humanity, that what we can do if quoting out of context.
The remaining two verses were taken by Wilder from Chapter 4 Surah An-Nisah
004.056 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
I thing if a person have little knowledge about Islam or even a child can understand that this verse is not related about worldly life its about Hereafter. Verse saying that those who will not believe in Allah, The only Lord of Worlds, such persons will be put in Hell Fire. This is same message which is being given by all Messengers including Moses and Jesus and Jews and Christian believe in it.
What a surprise that “Mr” Wilder use such verse to prove islam promote violence, which is clearly not the meaning of the verse.
Last verse used in the video by Wilder is verse number 89 chapter 4 Surah An-Nisah
This Verse is actually against Wilder’s ideology but still so silliness he is using the verse which actually showing great favor for humanity. its talking about hypocrites, a hypocrite is just like a spy who apparently look devotee or patriot but actually he is supporter of enemy. So what is the ruling for that kind of persons in Islam? Allah explaining this in the following verses.
004.088 Why should you, then, be two parties in relation to the hypocrites while Allah has made them return (to disbelief) for what they have earned? Do you desire to guide him whom Allah leaves in error? And whomsoever Allah leaves in error thou canst not find a way for him
004.089 They wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved so that you might be on the same level; so take not from among them friends until they flee (their homes) in Allah’s way. Then if they turn back (to hostility), seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take no friend nor helper from among them,
004.090 Except those who join a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you and fight you not and offer you peace, then Allah allows you no way against them (to war against them)
The verses showing clearly that even hypocrites (Munafiq) were not to be killed or fought against if they refrained from fighting, though they may have gone over to disbelief after accepting Islam. Note also that here Allah clearly commanded that if any people offered peace, they were not to be fought against.
Islam is a complete way of life and a beautiful religion. We pray for all those who still not believe that may Allah let them become honest with themselves and help them to see the light of Islam before their death.
posted on April 9th, 2008 at 8:21 am - #9113Khalid
I’m a proud Indonesian Muslim.. I’ve watched the movie “Fitna”.
I feel insulted at first.. But hey it’s every man right to make a movie rite?
I’m not saying that they’re right to say bad thing about our religion or even make the movie out of it.. But they can say all they wanna say as long as we know that it’s not true.. We all feel violated too Khalid.. So just chill man.. We know that the movie it’s JUST a movie..
For me it’s just like DaVinci Code all over again.. Just another controversial movie that saying bad things and try to make us doubt our religion.. It’s all gonna go away in few months just like DaVinci Code does.. BUT TO BANNED YOUTUBE and Other website such as Myspace or Multiply is just dont makes sense at all..
posted on April 9th, 2008 at 10:21 pm - #9125All kinds of fundamentalist discourse – of any religion – only have one purpose – to attack, kill and spread hatred. Debates over which is right and which is wrong are exactly the kind of responses wanted by the producer of these discourses – like ‘Fitna’ or any other kind of propaganda on the name of religion. Don’t bother about them – they are no good at all to our life. Life is hard enough without additional hateful thoughts.
posted on April 10th, 2008 at 5:08 am - #9129REPLY TO:“..we are taught by Holy Quran, to respect all religions and prophets of the history..”. Really ? Is this particular teaching overruled by the calls to kill ‘kafirs’ wherever you see them ?
No, it has nothing to do with a bunch of cruel people using Islam for killing what so-called Kafirs.
The blocking is a way for Indonesia to show people out there esp to those who made the movie that we’re angry (we, because I’m living in the country as well and moslem). If we didn’t make any significant action, it’d seem like we were fine at all being abused or offended like that. Do you think you’re never angry with people even though you know that’s useless?
posted on April 10th, 2008 at 2:17 pm - #9132Saya orang indonesia, dan anda-anda semua yang bukan pemeluk agama Islam adalah orang kafir bodoh terlaknat dan pasti nantinya akan langsung mendapat tempat yang luas dan panasnya luar biasa yaitu neraka. Karena apa karena anda adalah orang KAFIR.
Tapi jangan khawatir untuk saat ini, karena Indonesia adalah negara yang beragama dan berkeTuhanan. Meskipun mayoritas penduduknya adalah Islam, masih sangat banyak yang tidak memeluk Islam (KAFIR) tetap hidup dengan tentram, damai, dan sentosa.
Yang bodoh dengan mem-blok YouTube bukanlah satu Indonesia. Keputusan ini diambil dan dilaksanakan oleh Menteri kami yang bodoh dan M.Nuh. Dia adalah menteri yang sangat taat dengan Islam, akan tetapi dia lupa bahwa Indonesia bukanlah negara Islam, melainkan negara yang beragama! Dan dia melakukan itu semua untuk mencari muka di depan Presiden SBY, karena dia baru menjabat sebagai menteri belum sampai 1 tahun, dan berharap agar ketika pemilu 2009 nanti dia bisa tetap jadi menteri atau kalau bisa jadi wakil presiden.
So yang bodoh bukanlah Indonesia, tetapi M.Nuh yang terlalu sok, dan merasa paling pintar.
posted on April 10th, 2008 at 7:29 pm - #9134for all of my friends, who mostly happen to be moslem, the issue is not about the movie. we are more concern to the overreacted decision dat our government had made. shameful it is. those site are what unite us in the 21st century. it keeps us updated to each other. no religion debates, no racial debates. we just share life, moments, jokes, sadness, spirits, news, knowledges, songs, networks….and it almost everything dat we need.
*there are 1001 spectacular and easy ways to access those websites. how can government forgot dat indonesia has great hackers? now those hackers shared their ways to get into websites to the public. can u imagine there’ll be another thousands of hackers are born now….isn’t dat even scary?
posted on April 10th, 2008 at 10:41 pm - #9135Yeah I agree with you Dan. It just our new ministry Mohammad.Nuh that so idiot who like children with a gun in his hand. He shoot everything that he doesn’t like it. Wether is killing every of “rakyat kecil” that has running little bussiness ini Youtube, myface etc. He doesn’t care about it.
posted on April 11th, 2008 at 5:56 am - #9138He only care with his blind idealism. And we can assuming that M.Nuh is terrorist right? Everything that doesn’t look right in his wisdom and his idealism should be shoot to kill.
A lot of Indonesia netters hate and angry with him because of what he done to them.Peace for all of you
Hi All,
1. It is true that most of the verses in Al-Quran as shown in Fitna?
2. Some true , some might not….
3. So all Muslim don’t upsad or get mad…
4. Make as Seminar/workshop/talkshow by Muslim to counter or explain
clearly/actually how Muslim or other people should understand
the Fitna movie……..
Why people are so easily to be upsad?
posted on April 11th, 2008 at 6:23 am - #9139Muslim should thanks for the Fitna movie (produser) …
it give your the change to show/prove people how good is Muslim…
Our Minister Info Tech… block the Youtube
What a shame…. Youtube is also a place to learn (education)…
If you Kid come home and say….that their friends told him…
daddy have another new wife….. so what will you do?
1. Block your KID mouth (with super tape)..
2. Nicely explain to him… it is not true…asking question, etc??
So do you think Muslim parent will do No.1?
what a shame!
posted on April 11th, 2008 at 6:40 am - #9140thanks for Khalid…. nicely explain…
question : The Muslim God / Mohammad write a good
USER MANUAL, USER REFERENCE MANUAL
in a plain easy to understand, comprehend…language?
j3000 – I love 2 read manual…
posted on April 11th, 2008 at 8:41 am - #9146Hello friends,
posted on April 12th, 2008 at 2:06 pm - #9161It is very wrong perception that there is absolute freedom of expression. I as an Indian , can not insult and abuse Mother India , and claim the immunity of freedom of expression.The derogatory and insulting film Fitna is not an unbiased criticism or review of Islamic teachings . It is part of false and malicious propaganda . All responsible media net-works must aviod it’s reproduction and releases in any form.Or they must be dealt in accordence with law . This is very necessary for social tranquility and peace.
“I am a muslim in Indonesia, and I have to say that I don’t care about the movie. I love my religion, but I also respect free speech. So give me back Youtube!” –> oh how i love you, love your religion but respect free speech! it’s human rights
moslems or not moslems they have the same right to live!!!!
posted on April 14th, 2008 at 5:23 am - #9175This movie is to warn people that Moslem’s is growing fast in Holland and Europe, then the result is people in Holland and Europe who are not moslem will not safe anymore. This movie says that moslem are killer who kill everyone except moslem it self.
It is happen that moslem kill non-moslem in Irak and Afganistan. But… they do that in the term of WAR… I don’t say what they do is right, but what is right or wrong in a war is absolutely gray…
In Indonesia (at Poso and Ambon) moslem were massed killed by Christian, but they can back in peace, basically all religion want peace.
In Islam, we have basic principle.. “lakum dinukum wal yadiin” means Your Religion is For You and My Religion is For Me.
Don’t miss understood about JIHAD, in Islam JIHAD is not always about war… Working hard to give best life for your family (wife and kids) is also called as JIHAD. But if others are attack Moslem, destroying Mosque, Burning the Al-Quran, Killing Children, like happened in Iraq… is it logic if Iraq people didn’t fight back? everyone will fight back if they are attacked.
Then US will say that they attack Iraq because Moslem has attack WTC at 9/11… so US has rights to make a counter attack… Is it true that 9/11 is the beginning of all moslem – non moslem “war”? Osamah Bin Laden has been “terrorist” long time before 9/11. Why Osamah Bin Laden become a terrorist?
It is need a deep and long historical analysis… :)
Terrorist are just a group of idiots… if you don’t like terrorist then fight them… fight the terrorist, don’t fight moslem.
So.. why don’t we just live in peace… don’t make any propaganda to spread hate to any religion or tribe. They are who love to make war are just a group of idiots… there are no different with terrorist it self, don’t care about them. Most people love to live in peace.
So.. if Geert Wilders movie has heart moslems, what should Moslem’s do is FIGHT BACK… by making a movie about the truth of Islam, and Islam’s opinion about terrorist. NOT by blocking access to the movie.
posted on April 14th, 2008 at 6:42 am - #9176[...] has lifted the ban on Youtube.com. Internet service providers “would only block access to pages carrying the [...]
posted on April 14th, 2008 at 6:52 pm - #9177I haven’t watched the whole film yet, but already I believe some things can be said here. The first minutes of the film and all that’s being said here makes me believe the film is an insult not only to Islam, but to the intelligence of it’s audience. It’s an insult not because it criticizes a religion and a faith, or only because it’s appellative visualut tricks, but because its point seems to be based on the distortion and biasing of facts and fragments of the Quran.
But banning it and promoting hate on those who made or watched the movie is wrong, too. It only confirms the biased image made by many westerners about the people of Islam. The image of Muslim as aggressive, bad tempered, radicals unable to talk reasonably — an image I surely don’t agree with, but must say many people believe in it.
Free Speech, as Democracy, is not an easy thing. In Democracy everyone has the right to speak out its needs and ideas. Free Speech means everyone, no matter how wise or stupid, no matter how good or bad intentioned, will have the right to speak. That means you’ll have to stand and listen to a lot of bad, stupid, offensive and unfair things, and not freak out. You can’t shut up someone just because it says nonsense or makes hateful or stupid points. If you believe in free speech and the human right to talk, you must answer whatever bad points you come in contact with not with force, but with reason. And, may the Higher One permit us, answer with good reason that destroy the bad argument, but not the speaker(s).
Fitna may be a bad, mean, movie. But it is our common right that it exists. If you don’t agree with it, as I don’t, answer to it, and answer loud and clear, and, most of all, answer reasonably. That will not only show to all around you that the movie was a bad one, but will prove that you’re as reasonable and wise as you can be. Nobody would be able to show you as a bad person when you show everyone you ARE NOT ONE. Use your freedom to earn yourself respect, and respect the freedom of everyone. It’s not easy, but it’s right.
Best,
posted on April 15th, 2008 at 4:03 am - #9183D.D.
Ok but most of you are missing the point here yah,
posted on April 16th, 2008 at 7:39 pm - #9186The point is this pornography is illegal her in indonesia kan
but we accept all religions kan, so we can access porn site but not those that go against religion? This is a debauchery to our rights as citizens of a multicultural world. Dont you see this is the same problem we had two years ago with the anti-porno law they tried to pass. What one religion call porno we hindus call religious clothing kabaya. The problem is where do you draw a line? Its not about the film its about allowing our goverment controll over our knowledge tonight i cant open google or do a search from yahoo for anything. How can we allow this today block youtube tmrw yahoo, google, abc, bbc. Sebenarana MTV itu tidak ikut caranya mulsim kan. Then should we get rid of that on the tv also radio. How about all the films we watch with muslim terrorists? Should we ban those too? Well it wont matter because the goverment will decide how about books encyclopedias schools this is the real point of censorship. If we give up our right to decide we give up our right to know for our selves. In reality we are a very poor country that most of the world doesnt even know we exsits I never even would have known about this film until all this noise about it. How can anybody tell someone in another country what they can do is right or wrong. Cock fighting eating dogs cats wearing koteka what if those countries said well unless you do what we want you too we will block everything we give you. Money internet connecition we connect from singapore which is backed by US how about satelite communications we dont have any how about cocacola. Are we a part of the world community or not. Do we really want to live like in Iran pakistan afgahnistan. I dont think we do I think we like alot of the things we have because of the western countries. We are a country of 50 years how do we want to be seen? A bunch of extreamists that are willing to cut off ties to the whole world because some guy in holland did something. We have terrorist here in indonesia what if the whole world looked at us like they do iraq, and iran and even cuba. ” OK you want to block us ok every site that has the word indonesia in it BLCOK” ‘Google’, Yahoo, MSN these companies could do that any ip address from indonesia ok BLOCK what we think were strong to block them what if they block us? If you want to protest a film dont watch it dont talk about and leave it be look at all the problems you made here the problem isnt the film its censorship based on religious grounds. Any muslim who thinks thats ok then fine lets do it lets block every site that has any porno including pictures of bali with kabya or koteka in papua (thats indonesia)lets ban all forgien media from tv all forigen magazine all sites that say anything bad against islam or have any negative refrence to islam BBC NBC FOX and we will live quitely here on our islands not moving forward while the rest of the world leaps ahead
Dear Forum
Hi im from holland, and this movie has sparked something here as well.
it all started in 2003 right after the tsunami in indonesia. The horrors that came were felt by my people as well. after all, indonesia had been an dutch colony for centuries, and my aunt is indonesian as such.
my family, and many of my friends and their families, started to collect money for the poor indonesians that were suffering because of the tsunami. in all
my familie collected over 500 euros, which is over 700 american dollars calculated roughly. in all we dutch collected hundreds of millions of dollars for the
people so that they could buy food and shelter as well as medication. IN FACT my people were the once who managed the distribution of clean water, even
installing many fresh water pumps so that they would survive.
In the end we dutch all assumed that although we are christian, the indonesians would see that we are not the imperialistic evil west which many call us,
we believed they were thankfull for our kindness and would repay it in due time.
That is why when i heard about the movie, i was confident that we could trust in the kind indonesian people, especially since geert wilders is only an individual and they would certainly not judge the entire dutch people on one person right?
Man was i wrong…… from showing life treaths to geert wilder, to burning our national flag. a flag which was won during the 80 year war against the armada of spain in BLOOD. a flag under which we choose to treat the indonesian people with kindness. all that kindness was forgotten, we were nothing then pay-checks, pay-checks to be cashed and used and then not being considered human.
of spain in BLOOD. a flag under which we choose to treat the indonesian people with kindness. all that kindness was forgotten, we were nothing then pay-
checks, pay-checks to be cashed and used and then not being considered human.
The funny thing is, is that in holland we have troubles with muslims for over 30 years, in the 60’s we let a lot of immigrants come here, just like we did
to the chinese, we hoped they would adept and live with us in peace, but instead they refused to adept, took no interest in education but choose to life
on well-fare fonds we gave to the poor. 60% of all wellfare funds are being used up by the only 8% muslims of holland. though 80% is still too much
in my opinion seeing the troubles those immigrants from morrocco, turkey, and even indonesian are causing. and many turn extremistic as well.
what geert wilder was trying to say with the movie, was that against these issues something has to be done, many politicians have turned a blind
eye because not to long ago saying such things would be considered *le gasp* racism.
now, he is a bit hard with his words, but he is only showing immages done by muslims, and seeing the issues in holland i can understand why he
made it. of course my people KNOW not all muslims are like that, which is why we are even still very tollerant of them.
but what i dont understand is that when he made that movie, all the muslim people did was not show they were nothing like that movie, but made
death treaths against ALL of my people and boycotted our goods while i feel we should have done that as a responce, ESPECIALLY since we have paid
Hundreds of millions of dollars to their people and thereby together with our fresh water installations saved many of their lives. and now i see them
wanting to murder my people because of one person…..
The sad part is is that those reactions only prove to many that geert wilders is right: i mean, if islam is a religion of peace, then why not defend it with
fact and words instead of threats and violence?
i have talked with my friends who collected the money for the tsunami with me and they reacted in disgust, saying litterly: that “the next time those
filty bastards come crawling to us begging for money i’ll kick them in the buttom and teach them some manners first, because i have better ways
of spending my money then on those Jihand bastards”. and not only him, but the rest of my friends and their families as well. at first we here in holland
had this immage of the kind and beautiful indonesia, with which we have ties in the past and whose people were very welcome here. but now…
many now have an image of indonesia filled with extremists and haters, who are and will always be ungratefull to kindness.
im not saying i believe that, but even i feel content towards indonesia now. our own covernment should have boycotted back many say, because if you
keep giving in to “extremist types like those” they will only become worse. And sadly i agree with that.
i believe islam was based on an religion of peace but yet i dont see any reactions which prove that to me. i know that there were many cartoons made
by muslims portraiting jewish and christians horrible, but when the muslims see one cartoon made by one chrisitan they screem “death to the infidels”
lets insult them by burning their home flags. as if we were not insulted by those early cartoons of chrisitans and jewish, or by the ummayyad invasions
in the 7th centure in which many europeans were murdered by the muslim ummayyad dynasty and spain was turned into a colony long before the
crusades. then as a christian you are starting to feel contempt towards muslims.
my advice: accept critisim like we did, and dont be so hypocrite. you are only proving the critics right.
with kind regards,
niels de jong
posted on November 2nd, 2008 at 8:44 pm - #13948Niels de Jong: You submitted a good post. How many of the Muslims that responded will consider that when they insult Christianity or the west in general they should accept, with out threats of violence, some innocuous cartoons or a film that only pictures Muslims doing what they seem to like to do best, threaten any one that may disagree with them?
posted on November 23rd, 2008 at 6:41 am - #14239